31:49
And the third name I was going to mention is,
31:52
I don’t know how much you ran into Zhu Rongji.
31:56
– He’s been a hero of mine, I didn’t know him personally.
31:58
– Well, he was a hero of mine.
32:00
This was in the 1990s when I was in China quite a lot,
32:04
I don’t go to China, very little now,
32:07
and I don’t know the leaders now.
32:08
But I knew the leaders in the 90s,
32:11
when they seemed to be a blossoming, capitalist economy,
32:16
to exaggerate a bit.
32:17
With hopes for an open, democratic society.
32:21
Doesn’t look that way, quite, now,
32:22
but back when Dung and Zhu Rongji were there,
32:28
it looked very promising.
32:30
And they’d come to us for advice,
32:32
they don’t come to us for advice anymore.
32:35
They might come to us and tell us what to do, but. (laughs)
32:38
– Well, they seem to be doing pretty good–
32:40
– Yeah, that’s right.
32:41
That’s right, they say we don’t have to follow you anymore.
32:44
But Lee Kuan Yew, of course, is a special case.
32:48
Here he is–
32:48
– But what are those qualities?
32:50
– Well, he knew what he wanted to get done and he did it.
32:55
And in a small, relative enclave
32:59
and he did a lot of things that we tutted about,
33:02
in terms of democracy, he was
33:05
a little too eager to put people in jail
33:07
to quiet down opposition
33:10
and worry about what the newspapers said about him
33:13
and so forth.
33:14
But he had a drive to develop Singapore
33:18
with a very strong civil service,
33:22
very effective, corrupt-free government,
33:25
as near as I can see, and he pulled it off,
33:28
and he maintained a very strong position.
33:31
And Singapore is, economically, I don’t know
33:35
where it ranks in the world by pro-capita income, but it’s–
33:39
– Way up there.
33:40
– [Paul] Very high, come up from nothing.
33:41
– So, your principles, if I get it correctly,
33:44
your principles would be a great leader
33:46
has an accurate vision of where to go.
33:50
A great leader has,
33:52
will fight the opposition
33:57
in pursuit of that, and deliver.
33:59
A great leader has a deep caring for the people
34:02
that they’re leading.
34:04
A great leader also seems to be leading
34:07
with an effective management
34:12
of civil service
34:14
in government, or a effective bureaucracy
34:18
to carry those things through.
34:20
Are those the principles?
34:22
– Well, I think we have to add a principle, the one you had,
34:25
you gotta have a respect for the people.
34:28
I don’t know if you included that.
34:31
Some of the qualities you mentioned,
34:32
you could apply to Adolf Hitler.
34:35
But we don’t want an Adolf Hitler,
34:38
we want somebody who’s got some democratic instincts
34:41
and recognizes that he’s only there temporarily.
34:44
And that he wants to lead the country effectively,
34:51
but peaceably,
34:53
and without dictatorial demands.
34:59
So, it’s a nice balance to be in charge,
35:01
and maybe less efficient when you have to deal with
35:06
public opinion and different points of view.
35:09
But it’s obviously essential if democracies going to last.
35:13
We legitimately worry about democracy now.
35:16
My mother, who was quite a character herself,
35:19
I recall, vaguely, whining to her when I was,
35:24
probably, a young man in government,
35:26
Vietnam War or something, rioting in the streets…
35:32
We were threatened, the country was threatened
35:34
to survive all these tensions.
35:37
She said, sonny boy, she didn’t call me sonny boy, (laughs)
35:42
she said we’re 200 years of democracy,
35:46
we’ve been a longer democracy
35:47
than anybody else in the world,
35:49
we’ve gotten over worse than this before,
35:51
go get back to work and do something.
35:54
And I take a little comfort in that thought,
35:57
that we can straighten ourselves out
35:59
after this little turmoil, not so little turmoil.